At 03:04 PM 8/21/98 GMT, Gary Kleppe wrote:
Sean Connor <sec@softhome.net> wrote:
On Fri, Aug 21, 1998 at 12:58:27AM +0000, Gary Kleppe wrote:
Huh? When was this shown? As I understand it, Soun didn't do any cooking
in the canon for the simple reason that Kasumi was there to do it for
him.
This isn't canon. It's a possible (and entirely reasonable)
explanation of the canon, but it isn't canon.
I didn't say it was canon. I said it was *my understanding* of the
canon.
An understanding which is not perfect - nor can it be. This is where the
problem lies, Gary; you are human, but put yourself up as some sort of
authority over characterization.
Now, in Sydney Kyle's fic, "Akane and Ranma", Mr. Kyle portrays Ukyou
as Ranma's best friend. Again, there's no real proof either way.
(But again, however, there are reasons why she might be, or might not
be.)
There's strong indirect evidence that she's not, and I know of
absolutely no evidence that she is (I've challenged people to come up
with some).
Right now, I seriously wish that my manga collection wasn't in boxes.
Indirect evidence is precisely that - indirect. There's also a lot of
evidence (again, indirect) out there that she is; for instance, the scene
where Ranma and Akane help out at the Ucchan. Even if it hadn't happened,
why would they feel so close to her that they would help her keep her store
running? There's also the shrine that the three of them helped out at, as
well as the Tsubasa episode - all of which tend to show some sort of
familiarity between not just Ukyou and Ranma, but Ukyou and Akane as well.
I could probably name more, but I'm sorta between lives at the moment.
Your response to Mr. Kyle's fic was to demand evidence for his
position -- quite loudly and rudely, I might add.
I don't remember anything loud and rude about that post. I even said
"please," for goshsakes. It was, perhaps, a little overzealous, and for
this I apologized to Kyle long ago. Take the chip off your shoulder,
please.
Overzealous can be worse than rude. A streaker is rude. A rapist is
overzealous.
Nick's response was to ask you for evidence for your position, in
terms that were rather more polite than yours.
Why is this? Why do you think Mr. Kyle should provide proof of his
characterization, when you obviously don't think you need to provide
proof of yours?
My fic wasn't trying to persuade the reader of anything. Kyle's, at
least the way it seemed to me, was. When you're writing to persuade the
reader that fiancee X is a better match for Y than Z, IMO you have a
bigger fairness obligation.
Wrong. By its very existence, it tried to persuade that Ranma and Akane do
belong together, that she would have gone out with a creep like Koichi,
that Soun WOULD cook on a regular basis, that Shampoo would see Ranma and
Akane about to get married and just walk away...
See my point? ^_^ One man's idea of an idea is another's idea of persuasion.
Even if it were proven that Soun wouldn't learn to cook, this would be
an exceedingly minor quibble.
Indeed it would.
Then remove it rather than defend it, if it's so minor. ^_^
No, no, no... I only CLAIM loudly and proudly to be a hypocrite... but
deep down, I'm secretly sincere. ^_^ (Figure THAT out. :-P)
I don't really have to waste time trying to untangle your verbal
Gordian knots.
That's a joke, son.
Read his post again. He stated that you critisized _other people's_
characterization on a regular basis, not his in particular. Do you
really care to dispute that charge?
I would admit to "other PERSON." Namely, Zen. And I'm not the only one.
Nick himself once admitted to having had an OOC complaint *every* time
he pre-read one of Zen's fics.
You're twisting words here. Do you want me to go through my archive and
start citing examples of where you criticize other people's
characterizations? One very recent case where you go "Who are you, and
what have you done with the real Ranma?" comes to mind... and that wasn't
one of Zen's works either. In other words, you're misrepresenting the
truth. Zen may be the only one you constantly criticize; however, your
reputation for criticizing others' characterizations has brought you into
this argument - one that I haven't responded to in two days.
And Zen's OOC were usually minor - an overly-played sentence here and
there. Also, note the word 'pre-read'. I read a partial draft of Bitter
End nearly five months before it came out. It still took my breath away.
Offhand, I can think of only one place where he didn't change something I
found OOC, even after I'd mentioned a way for it to work.
First of all, from your criticism of Mr. Kyle's fic, one could easily
get the impression that you think that something shouldn't be shown in
a fic unless it can be conclusively proven. (ie. Ukyou and Ranma being
"best friends".)
Oh, bull. I have NEVER advocated this kind of Guy Under the Bridge
stance, and I'm on record against it. BTW, why weren't you up in arms
over Gubby's criticism of Lawson? Because it didn't unvolve Ukyo?
Well then, Mr. Kleppe. Please practice what you preach. You railed
against the Ranma and Ukyou thing above, then deny you ever use it?
Now, you criticized Bitter End in a post you made to RAAF a few months
back. Among other things, you stated that it featured a friendship
between Ranma and Ukyou that wasn't present in the manga. Well,
assuming, for the sake of an argument, that this is true, we still
have the fact that the situation between Ranma, Akane, and Ukyou had
changed to what it was in the manga, and changed in such a way to make
such a friendship more likely. Clearly, then, it can be inferred from
this that you believe that characters are not allowed to change in
response to changing circumstances.
I criticized Long and Winding Road for claiming a Ranma/Ukyo friendship
DURING the manga. Admittedly, it may have been erroneous of me to lump
BE into the same category, but I still stand by my other criticisims of
that story.
One question: Would you go over and help someone run their restaurant if
they WEREN'T a friend? ^_^ Ranma did. Akane did as well, though that may
have been partly to keep an eye on Ranma.
Now, of course, I hope you realize that this is a little over the top.
However, all I'm doing is taking the characterization standards you
seem to have set for others, and applying them to your own works. By
doing this, I hope it makes you realize that your ridiculously
stringent standards for characterization in other people's work are
not appropriate, and that perhaps an apology to Mr. Kyle and all the
others that you've given a hard time over this is in order.
As I told you, I've already talked to Kyle. What others you're talking
about, I've no idea.
Gary, I implore you to look over your archive of posts and look for any
instance where you berate someone's characterization. Those are the
'others'.
Gary Kleppe
http://www.execpc.com/~kleppe/comics
-- Nick