Matthew,

[snip for space] 

This isn't directly related to the argument here, but... Bob, Matthew...
have either of you actually *read* the ghost cat story? The only thing
Ranma did to "save" Shampoo is to beat up Genma when the cat possessed
him. Looks to me like a convenient excuse to pound dear old Dad. Nor did
it seem to me that Shamps was in any real danger; the cat seemed pretty
incompetent.

I cheerfully admit I have not.  I only picked it up because Bob used it 
as an example of Shampoo "oweing" Ranma.  So I used it in the counter 
example to show that Shampoo thought she was really repaying that debt.

Ahem. May I suggest you reread this section of part 2 a little more
carefully. It isn't a matter of Shampoo "owing" anything to Ranma, at all.
Akane brings this up in order to get Shampoo thinking about the kind of
relationship she wants. Akane implies that the Tendos and Saotomes thought
of Shampoo as an ally, and went to her aid as an ally would. This is Akane
being very feudal about things. She is more or less saying, "We have been
your ally in the past, and it saved you from an awful fate. You might want
to consider keeping us as allies for the future, because something like this
could happen again. Think, hard, about it before you throw this away."
There is an implied threat here, too. It goes like this... and this is just
about as feudal and medieval as it gets: "It's good to have us as friends
and allies. You won't like what happens if you make us your enemies."

If the example's bad, I withdraw it.

As for Shamps and Ukyo doing Ranma a favor by bombing the wedding --
personally, I don't buy that for a second. There would've been better
ways for them to get Ranma away from the Tendos if indeed they thought
he had wanted to get away. I do agree, though, that the Ranma and Akane

Possibly they could have.  As I said though, Ranma and Akane only 
brought it upon themselves by perpetuating and encouraging such behavior 
through their deception.

You know, Matthew, I worry about you a little. I mean, sometimes people say
rather extreme things to make a point in a debate, but don't really have
that extreme a view themselves. I hope that's what you mean here. I worry
that you mean exactly what you are saying.  You do realize, don't you, that
this is a near textbook example of blaming the victim? Don't take my word
for it. Look it up.

I'm assuming Ukyou and Shampoo believed Ranma and Akane's deception in 
this universe.  In the regular series, it's different, but when we're 
told characters are being lied to, and those characters then act as if 
they believe that lie....  then I assume they believe the lie.  It's the 
simpler explanation.

Well, that overlooks the conceit of the basic premise of this story.  This
_is_ the reality underlying the canon storyline.  Well, for purposes of this
particular story, at least.  Please understand, I'm not saying this is the
Truth with a capital "T".  It's a defensible interpretation of the canon story.

And anyway, let's not get bogged down with specfic examples and 
counter-examples.  I'm just saying Ranma and Akane's pattern of behavior 
strikes me as suspiciously villainous in character. Doesn't mean 
everyone else is behaving like saints.

There are no saints and no villians either.  Just people... wonderful, error
prone people trying to make things work.

(Hey Bob, at least I got people talking about the fic, eh?)

I'll say.  I expect Tybalt's ax to fall any second. 

Best,

Bob Barnes
rbarnes@moscow.com
Moscow, Idaho

When opportunity comes, the trick is to CATCH the red hat.